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Should walllingering be banned?

This stays here as long as it takes to work out the new server rules

Should wallingering be banned?

yes
94
77%
no
19
16%
don't care
9
7%
 
Total votes : 122

Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby [duFF]ZoneZer0 » Jun 21st, '13, 8:31 am

I think a system to auto-ban logged in botted times is more urgent than seeing what to do with wallbugs right now. Wallbugs are just a bug, it's true that they suck and would be better to give them individual separate rankings but they are still no cheat, just a bug abuse, term that actually describes almost all of defrag anyways :D .

There's a massive amount of noobs running around with bots on mdd's servers now, and whats most outrageous is that some of these noobs have started to log and register times "unintentionally" or just unnoticed like this it.fallen guy did a couple days ago on several maps, though logging just one rank1 time, on st1 cpm (clearly botted), since he can't even bawt good (and his times are still there standing). I have nothing against good players testing routes / experimenting with advanced technical q3 stuff with bots, but clueless noobs botting online doing horribly bad routes and just trying to beat times that good players can do botless, and who are clueless enough to even "unintentionally" login for botted times just make me rage. The worst part has been trying to explain the new players about these botterseach time we convince some of our qlive players to start defragging here. New players don't care about the rankings since they don't know them, for them the competition is in the ranks showed with +score, and when they spect the botters to see how are they doing those times they get really discouraged. Imagine how they feel about the servers when they keep seeing bots and botted times and botted speed awards every day they get in to play ('cause these nub bots don't ever defrag normally, they just play their bot all day). There should be only one server that allows botted movement, like cyber's server where you can't login anymore :snooty:

Now ontopic again, as a lover of all the weirdest bugs in defrag I have to say some wallbugs can be pretty interesting, and I still want to understand the bugs behind some of them (specifically those where you wb into another wb switching position inside the same wall). I have never set a logged in wallbugged time myself since I understand how lame it would be to get your hard-worked time beaten by a wallbug, and grinding wallbugs is a pain in the ass and gets really boring. However I don't agree on banning them since banning these would provide grounds for people to whine over other bugs in the future, like random OBs which can also beat a hardly worked route and are also a pain in the ass to grind, but are just part of the defrag essence and shouldn't be taken away from it (though they require way more skill and consistence to abuse properly than what a wb requires). I was fine with the "mappers should avoid wallbugs" stance, but if you guys wanna save the old maps too I agree that a separate ranking for wallbugs is the best option, this way mappers can start making more interesting wb-intended maps and people would start learning how to wb and start having fun with it instead of feeling guilty for doing it! And once they learn it they could also avoid them if they ever decide to map. Learning new bugs is always fun in any speedrun game, and it's what makes these games keep you interested forever n ever :). Just follow the OOT speedrunners' path: when a bug is too drastic in saving-time terms (like the reverse bottle adventure bug) they just build a new category for runs using it, so you spedrun however you like.
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby <hk> » Jun 21st, '13, 8:41 am

Since it has been mentioned several times now, please keep in mind that creating a seperat ranking pretty much results in a rewrite of server and mainland proxymod. Also the database has to be altered. This is a lot of work and takes quite some time.
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby Arcaon » Jun 21st, '13, 11:44 am

Yes, khetti's point is perfectly valid. Wallbugs are just a part of the game mechanics. It's possible to do within the game as created by the developers, and innovative and opportunistic thinking should be rewarded, not punished. If it's possible to lump it under the category "bug", it's equally valid to every other member of that category; and we wouldn't ban groundboosts or strafejumps, would we?

Adjusting undesirable game mechanics is outright immoral. In Quake 3 1.16n, you could adjust your handicap so that you became invisible. It's fun quirks like these that enrich the game! If you didn't jump around as a totally unseeable player model, clearly you were shit at using the provided game to its fullest extent. And it's possible to think of certain specific cases where invisible gameplay would be interesting, so why id Software fixed this bug is beyond me.

Sure, gameplay demos where no player was visible were boring and unbearable to watch. Those who refused to use it due to its questionable use would lose every match. The competitiveness among those who used it was decreased as the range of strategic devices was confined to good usage of the bug. But those are no reasons for a ban!

If we banned wallbugs, what would be banned next? Turnscripts? Mousewheel jumps? Circlejump scripts? Lagging through walls and triggers? Rocketjump scripts? -128 exploits?

Now if you excuse me, I'm going to run a marathon using a motorcycle.
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby khetti » Jun 21st, '13, 9:22 pm

Arcaon wrote:Yes, khetti's point is perfectly valid.


My core point was that nobody here can argue their position effectively, and no real debate is possible on these boards.

Thanks for proving me right, btw.
It's hard to imagine a response more intellectually dishonest than yours.
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby esc?nebuLa » Jun 22nd, '13, 12:55 am

khetti wrote:Before I continue, note that I haven't logged any wallbugged times.

Much appreciated! I wish more exploiters would follow your example.

khetti wrote:https://ws.q3df.org/map/BardoK-Rody/

This map is only possible in vq3 through use of this bug, and it is totally leet and legit to do so.
There are countless similar examples, and the maps which are 'broken' by the bug do nothing to negate the ones which require it.

You should post a demo on this map illustrating your specific use of this bug.

khetti wrote:"Why is there even a poll on this?" - lith
Because accountability for a provably destructive and lazy action is easy to avoid if you can point to a poll where every idiot can have their spastic reactionary view represented without them being asked to defend it.

Wrong. Since wallbuggers are the minority in this community, THEY should be the ones defending their position.

khetti wrote:Teach mappers how to avoid it.

This is probably the wisest piece of advice in your entire post. I remember when nearly every map had an ability to timer reset. Only recently have mappers adapted the one way trigger which prevents tr, so mapper education is critical.

Arcaon wrote:If we banned wallbugs, what would be banned next? Turnscripts? Mousewheel jumps? Circlejump scripts? Lagging through walls and triggers? Rocketjump scripts? -128 exploits?

That would be nice. I'd vote against all of them. The only thing that makes those exploits interesting is if it's kept COMPLETELY separate from all online rankings and legit competitions. I do really enjoy watching the innovation in most of the botted demos, though, as long as it's not mixed in with all the humanly performed demos.

khetti wrote:My core point was that nobody here can argue their position effectively, and no real debate is possible on these boards.

What an arrogant point of view. Bow down to the omniscient khetti, for no one can out-debate him and no opinion is correct except his own.
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby like@boss » Jun 22nd, '13, 1:42 am

Are you only preposing manual deletion of record entries? What would stop users from resetting their wallbugged times again? Without a means to make it impossible for wallbugged times to show up in the rankings again or this whole thing is moot.

It doesn't seem that there is a strong fundamental opposition to the bug per se; rather, the primary concern is over ensuring that a level playing field is available for whatever the rankings are intended to measure. Some new modes are probably in order.
Last edited by like@boss on Jun 22nd, '13, 3:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby Arcaon » Jun 22nd, '13, 1:57 am

khetti wrote:
Arcaon wrote:Yes, khetti's point is perfectly valid.


My core point was that nobody here can argue their position effectively, and no real debate is possible on these boards.

Thanks for proving me right, btw.
It's hard to imagine a response more intellectually dishonest than yours.


Have fun pretending that the burden of proof is on anyone but you. You aren't even trying to make a counterpoint; you are just handwaving it away, hoping that your string of words sounds good enough that no one will question its veracity. My analogy was perfectly valid, and you haven't even attempted to do anything to prove otherwise.

You can either admit that the 1.16n handicap exploit is perfectly valid, and sound like an idiot, or admit that the handicap exploit is detrimental to the gameplay, and sound like an idiot while desperately defending wallbugs. The playing field is open.
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby khetti » Jun 22nd, '13, 5:55 am

Arcaon:
First make a point deserving of a response.
Hyperbole, purposeful misinterpreting and pointless abstraction do nothing for me, personally.
The issue is wallbugging in defrag, or at least it was before you attempted an epic derailing.

As for burden of proof, it's actually first on the person making the positive claim, i.e. "wallbugging is bad."
Counterpoints aren't always necessary in the manner you're seemingly accustomed to: My posts thus far have primarily been to show errors in the reasoning of those making this claim - my main concern is that drastic action not be taken on weak basis.
I've only given my suggestion of a less drastic action as a vote, since we're apparently doomed to decide things that way.


Nebula:
"Exploiter" in this sense is almost meaningless.
Someone perfecting a route to get the most snap accel or a weird overbounce is guilty of exploiting, maybe your wish needs a more careful phrasing.
Would posting a bardok-rody vq3 demo convince you that an outright ban of the technique is improper? If so, I'll be glad to :P

As for minority opinions having a greater burden of explanation, you're wrong and I never claimed this or anything comparable.
I can't see how you read that from the quoted statement, but I'll clarify: any action requires justification, and the persons requesting the action in this case have not provided solid justification.
The number of people supporting one side or the other has nothing at all to do with the need for justification, it is pure happenstance that only a few people know enough about the subject matter to have abused it.

Arrogance?
There still hasn't been a solid post from the ban-it camp, prove me wrong.
This time, no glaring logical fallacies, please.
You should know better.
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby mrm » Jun 22nd, '13, 7:41 am

I'm interested in knowing the mechanics of banning such a thing. Are we going to be asking for demos for all suspicious-looking times? Are we going to write some kind of heuristic process for finding wallbugged runs and include it in the proxymod? The first is abusable and the second is going to lead to the same kind of outrage bot detection caused.

I would say that since opinions are split on the matter and it appears technically difficult to solve the problem, it would be best to leave things as they are. After all, leaderboards are just leaderboards. People can read them and make their own inferences on how fair the times are. If you don't like wallbugging, discount the wallbugged times and consider the first reasonable number to be the true top time. It's not like the number one slot gets you anything but a bigger e-peen anyway.
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Re: Should walllingering be banned?

Postby Arcaon » Jun 22nd, '13, 10:14 am

khetti: Fine, I'll articulate the obvious message.

Demos will become boring and unbearable to watch. Those who don't want to stand still inside a wall for a full minute per run will lose on every map. The competitiveness among those who use it will largely diminish into a trivial question of starting speed.

There is no skill in using it. There is no skill in finding cornered walls before start timers. If it becomes allowed, I guarantee that every John Doe will do it, provided that they are bored enough. There is no difference in skill between the world's most experienced wallbugger and the guy who learned to get stuck in walls five minutes ago.

Every counterpoint I'm seeing is irrelevant and derailing. Banning wallbugs doesn't lead to a slippery slope where every possible technique will be banned -- a whole batch of exploits have already been banned without controversy. The question of how it will be prevented might be interesting, but has no bearing on whether it should be prevented -- whole accounts have been deleted several times in the past when a rule break has been detected. The question of whether it can technically be considered a bug or a feature, by the sheer virtue that it is possible to do within the physics engine, is pointless; that's a blurred category that can entail everything from trigger lagging to autojump scripts. Whether it has actual interesting uses on a permille of maps is a cyanide drop in a pool of water; the same can be said of other even worse exploits.

The only relevant question is whether allowing wallbugging makes Defrag better or not. Considering that you're talking about life-shortening technique that couldn't possibly have been anticipated, prevented or accommodated by a decade of mappers, I'd say that the answer is no.
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